ROdown Blog

Here is one for you guys? When you worry about body image, do you worry more about what guys think, or what girls think?

Like - so guys worry that a girl will think they are too fat/thin, not enough muscles, size of penis etc. or is it more about impressing other guys or living up to their standards.

Sometimes I think for me (as a girl) its more about other girls than guys. Not sure if that is just me though, lol.

Hmm, Nick1986, you really raised a very interesting point and I absolutely agree with you.

I absolutely agree that recognition of male body image issues must come within a seperate framework outside of female body image issues.

I think when talking about body image issue, even though a majority percentage of male do have the stereotypical body image issue of weight but there are also big issues like under and over exercising, the 6-packs, big biceps and huge penis issues as well.

Do the people think male body image is being unrecognised for?

Oh without a doubt, I don't contend that it's the choice of individuals to be models, and that more often than not it is the fault of the designers that we see many, many [scarily] skinny (male and females) on the catwalks all over the place. If I remember correctly, there was recently an article in the herald mentioning just that - catwalk coordinators (or whatever they are called?) were pushing for 'healthier' models, but it was difficult to do such a thing because the samples being sent by designers were just far too small to accomodate this.

On the topic of ranging model types (sportswear vs fashionista crap) I was targeting the fashion show models, rather than the undies models you asee all over the telly (didn't even think of that so good call).

The link was posted more to bulster the argument that their is a need for more recognition of male body image issues.

Just a quick one from me but I think the solution for want of a better word starts with recognition of male body image issues and secondly this recognition must come within a seperate framework outside of female body image issues. If this can start to happen within schools, workplaces, the media, politics, soceity etc it is the first step towards addressing what could be a worrying and increasing problem.

I did an error at the end:

This is what is meant to be said:

"Its all about making a business, selling and making a profit at the end of the day and thats what people consider really. Models need to be healthy too, because their heighy adn weight have to be at least equally the same in some way."

Sorry for the typo error.

Hey FA,

Sorry to interrupt too, but can I say with the second last sentence you wrote..."we continue to hear bitching and moaning about models being too skinny"?

There is a BIG difference. Sportsman Models  and Models, both for Fashionline designers from those designers.

Modelling agencies expect "Models" to be skinny, which isnt a fashionline to me. Its a disease to be honest. Why? Because the "designers" design the clothes and dont think or consider about other Models health, only to sell their clothing line. (thats what I think though).
 
However, I believe people have a choice to being Models, but how many of them speak up and say: "Hi, this is my body and I am not losing weight?"

Ill say probably a few. Eg: Americas Next Top Model or Australias Next Top Model? We see people walking out, because they dont want to do it.

I read that link you posted and quite frankly, those people have a choice to wear the clothing range, but its all about the money. Thats what I think. Wont you think :)?

The ones (Im assuming those who are in the non-modelling agencies)...bitch and moan. But cant blame them.

Modelling agencies, just want to make a business run. Non-modelling agencies, consider the health and wellbeing for every one, both men and women.

You know what though? Why are we saying male Models are skinny? I dont think at all, male models are too skinny, because like I said, theres 2 type.

Look at other models: Eg: Those Sports Stars that model for a "Sports fashion-line"...um...that tennis player: Pat Rafter...he did that Bonds (which isnt a sportsline, like adidas, Fubu, Nike, Puma etc...), but they wear it, in commercial...I didnt think he was skinny.

Ian Thorpe...Adidas...(swimming) - perfect body, ... Michael Jordin: Air (Nike), for Basketball, he too has a perfect body.

But those who go on a catwalk....dont wear their clothes...they were the designers clothes, and thats why models are skinny, because they dont fit in the designers clothing being designed.

Its all about making a business, selling and making a profit at the end of the day and thats what people need to consider really. Models need to be healthy too, because their height and weight have to be at least equally the same in some way.

Interestingly enough, this article (here) has just been published by the SMH. We continue to hear bitching and moaning about models being too skinny, with the focus being on females. Why not in general?

"I do see what you mean about the title of the radio program in terms of subtly reinforcing a gender steryotype (is that what you meant?)...hopefully the intended message of the program will come clear though :-)"

In a way, yes. Whilst the radio programs next week may be 100% aimed at improving the willingness of men to talk and all that stuff, it was more to do with how it was being marketed. "Are you man enough" well, who is man enough? It was - clearly unintentionally - allowing for some [inc. myself] to run with the idea that man enough can simply come back to the male pride - shut down and put on the 'happy face' - rather than what was being aimed for.

"Interesting point about women having been through a lot of this questioning of roles and men needing to catch up Antria. I guess the question is, how can this happen?"

Meninist movement (new word) will be met by a feminist movement and so on ad infinitum until that perfect equilibrium (ie fiction) is met. Sadly, I don't see it ever resolving, because whilst we can try to convince guys that it's not solely their role to be the strong, protective ones, it's second nature to most of us. Many friends of mine worry constantly about their girlfriends, about their friends and so on, it's hard to overcome something that is such a primitive instinct as you may think of it.

Effortsome copying the rest of the quotes out, but I think that alot of the issues revolve around the things our parents and grandparents were taught to believe, because they are in the power positions, and - lets face it - have control (voting powarghzzz) and unfortunately there are somethings that I can't see ever changing. We can challenge it as organisations or as educators or as institutions, but if the parents hold these values high, it is going to be extremely difficult to overcome...

Hm, I don't have the answer to how can it happen (just my own perspective). I do think in a sense perhaps a 'mens movement' but I think if you look at the feminist movement its not only women, but also men and society in general that have had to make changes in terms of their views of women and womens roles. I also wonder though, whether the increase in men being interested in fashion and some of those role changes might actually contribute to the issue of body image? Overall though I think ideally it would be great if both men and women had the flexability to make choices about their roles and lifestyle without discrimination. I believe there will always be differences (bioloical makeup sort of determines that) but there are a whole lot of socially constructed differences that I think are open to change.

I think that it is positive for RO and other organisations to begin to put this out there. I also know that in the last few years some of the community organisation in Queensland that work with women around eating disorders and body image - even those who work from a feminist model (looking at the systems that contribute to the issues) have opened their services to engage with men and increasingly recognise the need for services to assist men with these issues.

I think that it would be helpful if the media changes (though unlikely)...but I know of some great research happening at the moment around using more realistic male and female models and the fact that they sell products just as well.

I think individuals need to play a role in reducing social sterytypes by not reinforcing them (e.g., even the 'size does matter' types of jokes that go around especially in highschool add to the problems). By size I am talking penis size which I know is a big issue for a lot of the guys I know.

So I guess I see that there may be different things at different levels that might need to happen :-). Would be intersted to know what others think though!

Interesting point about women having been through a lot of this questioning of roles and men needing to catch up Antria. I guess the question is, how can this happen?

Reach Out is certainly looking at new ways we can engage guys and get them to talk more about this kind of stuff - and Man week is one way of opening this dialogue. There may just be other things brewing behind the scenes elsewhere too.

Male movement anyone?

:)

Fair enough final_alert - 'undocumented' or 'unspoken' was probably more what I was aiming at. Imaginary was the wrong word and certainly no intention to make people feel bad about feeling this way about body image expectations, more a way of acknowledging that it's undocumented/no written checklist. Apologies!

Hey FA,

I kind of feel bad for interrupting you guys chatting so feel free to kick me out...but I think it is really awesome you are putting those things out there (like gender roles etc.). It seems like with the feminist movement and all that happened with women entering the workforce during/after the war...women have had the chance to question and put it out there regarding roles and how they fit in society. I think things are going a bit slowly in terms of men getting the chance to 'catch up' and put it out there that their roles could be different or they might wish to have choices to live in a different way.

I think body image is a tough one because it is something that is typically seen in society as something that women worry more about. I know from my own relationships and social circles though, that this is a big issue for guys too. I think change is possible and I think it has to come from both guys and girls and a general attitude to things.

I do see what you mean about the title of the radio program in terms of subtly reinforcing a gender steryotype (is that what you meant?)...hopefully the intended message of the program will come clear though :-)

[can't edit my post].

What I didn't include in there, is that it's not a rational belief (or set of beliefs) but it's one that is there. Sure, we may see it as imaginary, but the same argument could be thrown at gender roles. Yes, there is a tendancy for men to be breadwinners and women the nurturers (throughout history), but is there a standing checklist for this?

Whilst not all men necessarily encounter these expections (driven from gender roles in society) it is something that is there for a number of is. Labelling it as imaginary isn't fair, and - personally - makes me feel worse, because now, not only do I see myself as wierd for having negative feelings, also feel as though I'm being shunned aside with the simple label of 'imaginary'.

Again, feel free to disagree, but that's honestly 100% how I feel.

'Man enough to talk about your feelings' is what it's getting at - can see how the misinterpretation could occur :)

Think through all the talk on the radio the fact that it's about talking about stuff as opposed to measuring up to something will be clear.

Nonetheless - I'll edit the post to clarify that!

PS: Next week is 'Man Week', a collaboration between Triple J and ReachOut.com where the discussion will be around the topicd: Are you Man enough?

Somewhat of a tangent, but is "Are you man enough" really a good name for the project? Because - and I'm sure there will be varying opinions on this arguement - isn't this something we are trying to stamp out? A belief that you must be man enough? Sure, there are arguments that tell us a real man never hits a woman and a real man will talk about their problems etc, which are all positive (no question) but at the same time, it is easy to mislead (just reading the title) people into believing they aren't man enough because they are down, or because they have a problem (male pride).

It's not the intention, but it's indeed a potential ramification.

I tend to agree with final_alert's points also. However I think the greater problem outside of male body image issues is the lack of recognition of these issues both in the professional and also the public domains.

I tend to think if there isn't now we as a society are certainly moving towards a situation where male body image will become as big a health issue as female body image problems are now. This in my opinion stems from societal pressures for men to conform some sort of hegemonic male which doesn't really exist.

The problem exists on multiple levels across the media, in advertising (think 2 minute man ads...) and also more generally in society and until this is seen as a real problem for young and old guys alike I am worried that we are on the verge of a massive influx of new mental health and more general issues for men across Australia.

Miscommunication - no one's fault.

Ah, I get what you mean now. Sorry, my bad!! :)

You've misinterpreted what I mean when I say conventional. Rather, I was just meaning (as I said in the comment earlier) it's not something that immediately comes to mind (as oppose to being a highly prevelant issue).

final_alert, you raised some really good points and I absolutely agree with you about being bulied if you are less or more than ideal.

I agree with Anna. I didn't think there was any conventional or non-conventional body image issue when it comes to men. From my point of view, I think that men has relatively more body image issues if I may say so - from our hair to our face, we can criticise and feel insecure on every single part of our body. I didn't think there was any "conventional" men body image issue.

But I absolutely agree that penis size is a pretty major issue amongst men, especially when they hit puberty. :)

To me it's 'non-conventional' because the first thing many, many people (including myself) seem to 'see' when the words body image are thrown around, is body size and shape. "BBW" is one of the favourites. But I agree with it being one of the most prevelant issues going.

Male pride, well, it's hard to explain, but I'm sure every guy knows what I mean. It's that feeling that you have to live up to the image of being strong, composed, the bread winner etc etc. There is an image of what a male is meant to be like, and one of the most destructive things in that pro-forma is the way in which we [men] are 'expected' to act as though there is little that can affect us and we are always mentally strong. Now, I admit it's changing over time, but mindsets are hard to change. Many years of probing into my head, and I still slip into the habit of telling people I'm fine even if I'm falling apart. There's this voice that seems to tell me it is embarrassing as a guy - around chicks and dudes - to be seen as weak.

Mind you, it's all generalities, but to sum up (tl;dr)
- Men are meant to be strong and cold
- Feeling down about yourself does not conform to this
- Brain says stop

I wouldn't say that's a non-conventional issue at all final_alert !

Speaking with Michael Colling from School's Out! Youth Services (who reviewed the fact sheet) that is an issue that is mentioned a lot amongst the young guys he works with in schools across Australia.

Could you explain a bit more about what you mean by male pride?

Also - if anyone has any stories about body image and how they've improved their own body image, please email crew@reachout.com.au. thanks :)

Most guys have body image issues, and that stems simply from penis size. Sure, it may not be what you term as the conventional issue(s) in regards to body image, but that - from my experience, and all my friends - was the single most frustrating thing they were coming across.

That's not to take away from any other aspects. I know that through my life I've come across major body issues at every step. If you are too fat, too thing, too blonde, too dark, etc etc ad infinitum in primary school, not fitting that 'perfect image' you will be bullied. In the highschool changing room, same thing.

As much as it is hidden (male pride, one of my favourites) it can be particularly damaging to the self-concept of a person.